march on the nation's capital here in washington, d.c. you can be sure that they'll be having some criticisms of the current administration. >> and mark, real quickly, we've been talking about what will happen to congressman wilson. we know it is possible that we could see some movement in the censure. will this be a hot topic as we go into the week. >> well, as kelly o'donnell has been reporting, either the democratic here's like nancy pelosi want wilson to eats apologize on the house floor or risk some type of motion like a censure. so it seem it is an either/or situation. obviously the joe wilson story will go into next week and have it live for another day. >> mark murray, nbc news, deputy political director. thanks as always. go long horn, right? >> exactly. >> that is big picture. you can all watch every morning. logon to firstread.msnbc.com.

>> another exciting week. we'll be watching "meet the press" and all the other stuff that happens. in the meantime prg does it for "the big picture." >> and up next, "hardball" with chris matthews. chuck todd is sitting in tonight. "hardball" starts right now. the president's political health. let's play "hardball." good evening. i'm chuck todd in washington filling in for chris matthews who will be back on monday. leading off tonight, image problem. the outburst by congressman joe wilson has us asking, are we at the point where we can say the intense opposition to barack obama in some parts of the country is about more than health care reform? stimulus plan? is it also about ideology?

regional differences and perhaps even race? what is more, wilson's remark and the support he has received in his south carolina district. is it threatening to harden the republican party's reputation right now inside the beltway? we'll talk to two members of congress in a mole. plus, september 11 is the reason we waged war in afghanistan. but eight years after we went in, what is our mission there today? nbc new chief foreign correspondent richard engel. and they'll give us their take on the present state of afghanistan. the debate over afghanistan is the latest development in an enormously important week for president obama that included health care and the skirmish over his back to school speech. white house spokesperson press secretary robert gibbs. since he didn't do a daily briefing earlier today will do one here. plus with a nationally tell advised interview on sunday, after the big week, we'll ask are we seeing too much of president obama? that's all the in the politics fifl. and it wouldn't be a political scandal without our friend david

letterman tonight. joe wilson's top ten excuses in the "hardball" side show. we'll begin with white house press secretary robert gibbs. sorry we didn't see you earlier today. we figured we would drag you out and make do you a mini version. >> i will end up in this room one way or the other, right? >> i want to play with you a familiar sound bite from the president wednesday night. let's take a listen. >> while there remains some significant details to be ironed out, i believe a broad consensus exists for the aspect of the plan i just outlined. consumer protections for those with insurance, an exchange that allows individuals and small businesses to purchase affordable coverage, and a requirement that people who can afford insurance get insurance. >> now robert, the president unveil his plan on wednesday. it is the president's plan. you have it on your website.

white house.gov. it is only three and a half pages right now. and he talk about, we saw the details. when are we going to see the details? as you found out in july and august when there weren't details provided by you guys, other peel fill in the blanks and you guys didn't seem to like it. so when will we see it? >> i would direct all your viewers to go to that website. there are plenty of details that the president has unveiled, actually, since coming to office. outlining how we're going to pay for this legislation by seeking and rooting out waste and fraud in medicare. taxing cadillac health care plans that are offer by insurance company. that is just one as that he can of many of the details in that legislation. and chuck, i think you've seen people that have reacted to that speech have heard convincingly and clearly what the president stands for and what he wants to do on health care reform. >> clearly you have to fill in some blanks on everybody.

it does seem this week you've been intent on making sure you're doing in the filling of those blanks. so when will we see more? should we speck to see the details of exactly where you get $500 billion out of medicare, for instance? >> well, i would refer you to the radio address we did in june which talks about that. we've directed the health and human services secretary to come up with proposals to address medical malpractice reform. we outlined a trigger this week that would say, we would not move forward with health insurance reform if savings weren't seen in the reform that we propose, and lastly, weapon that illegal immigrants wouldn't get health care. and we talk about that a little bit in this room yesterday. i think the people who watch that speech understand exactly what the president is for. and i think we had a very good week in getting health care a little closer to getting passed.

>> let's talk about the politics of this. you want to get it passed. you're going to need some republicans. maybe it is only one at the end of the day but you'll need at least one republican to get those 60 votes, for instance, in the u.s. senate. have you made any inroads reaching out to any more republicans besides maine republican olympia snowe? >> our health care coordinator, nancy and have spokesperson. >> who has the president talk to? >> i'm not going to give you names because that poor person's phone would ring off the hook. but the president is reaching out to democrats and republicans to try to get this done. i think you saw the president on wednesday speak extensively about how we can take the best ideas from both parties, put them together and ensure that americans that have insurance are protected, and that insurance is stable. and a pathway to providing access to affordable health care

for the millions of people that don't have it in this country. >> i want to move on to another topic. today being september 11th. a lot of focus on the war in afghanistan. the reason we wept in for a lot of people, for the public, was to get al qaeda and get osama bin laden. osama bin laden is still out there. is that the measuring stick today? why is he still out there? and is it this administration' goal, we're going to get rid of that guy? then we win? what is the exact goal here in afghanistan? >> well, the large goal in afghanistan, in that region, is to disrupt, disrupt and ultimately dismantle the extremist allies. obviously, we know that's where the planning for the horrific event that happened eight years ago started. they ended unfortunately in this country. we want to prevent that from taking place again. obviously, we are looking for and want to capture or kill

osama bin laden. but i think that in and of itself can't be the total policy. obviously, there are a series of very bad people, terrorists bent on murdering thousands of americans that we also have to be focused on. i think this administration has been focused on that since coming in. and our goal again is to disrupt, dismantle, is? destroy al qaeda and its extremist allies. >> can you look at this, we have two enemies here, there is al qaeda, which has shown an ability to strike all around the world. and then there is the taliban which is a regional threat. a throat pakistan. clearly a problem for stability there in both pakistan and afghanistan. but if you feel comfortable that you've disrupted al qaeda, destroyed al qaeda, at what point do you sit there and say, you have to sit there until you've destroyed the taliban? are they an enemy that can be destroyed? >> that's why we talk about al qaeda and its extremist allies. people like the taliban that

seek to destabilize afghanistan. that seek to destabilize pakistan. which sow the seeds for terror in places between the two countries and provide safe haven for plotters and planners for future attacks. look. i think we have to disrupt and dismantle the extremist allies. >> you've been getting bipartisan support. more from republicans, it seem like, on the policy on afghanistan. is this a concern of this white house that politically, a lot of leaders in your own party, speaker pelosi yesterday, you had senator levin, very nervous about the idea of trying to frankly get support in congress to send more troops to afghanistan. how much is the president going to start working on the politics on that in his own party? >> well, look. let take a long view of what the president has done in the transition before being even sworn in. the president asked that we recess and re-evaluate our

strategy in afghanistan. we've been there a long time and it wasn't working. in the lead up to those important elections, the president authorized more than 20,000 additional troops to bring some security and stability to the region. in preparation for that election. we replaced the commander on the ground in afghanistan, and the president asked for a review and an assessment of where our strategy was. that assessment has now come back. but as i said this morning, there is no imminent timetable for decision. there wasn't one before and there isn't one now. it will be manile weeks before the president gets to any sort of decision. we're working at these initial assessments after what general mcchrystal has seen. >> is it fair for member of congress before they're asked to vote on sending more combat troops prg they see a detailed exit strategy from the administration? >> well, this administration is

working with congress on establishing bench marks for the disruption and the destroying of al qaeda and its extremist network. >> we should determine that as an exit strategy? >> no. i think the bench marks are one way of measuring and very important way. and one we need to measure our strategic progress toward those goals. the president has that, we will not be in this region of the world forever. we dope have the resources in manpower to do that. we don't have the resources in the budget to do that. we have to focus our goals, and i think that's what the administration will continue to do in assessing the situation. >> earlier today, there was an incident report about training exercise with the coast guard. at the time, there was some confusion about what was going on. some media reports. do you think the coast guard should have put off that training exercise given that today is the anniversary of 9/11, or is this an issue

with the media? >> well, look, i think there have been people in the government that have asked the coast guard for an explanation about their training activities today. chuck, i will tell you that -- >> are you satisfied with that explanation from the coast guard? >> they're still working on that to make sure we have an adequate explanation. but i will tell you, watching the television, i left the meeting based on what was being reported on the television, which turned out to be erroneous. it was false. i think it alarmed far too many people on something, on a day in which obviously we remember the event that happen. and i do wish that some of the people that record that incident might have taken a little bit of time to check and see whether what they were reporting was accurate. you may not be the first person with the story but you may be the first person to report the story accurately. i think that's what people need to look for here.

and i'm sorry they missed that in scaring people. >> professor gibbs, you're going to be a journalism professor before the day is through, i guess. >> i could teach the class. >> i belt. we'll see you monday. coming up, eight years after the attacks of september 11, 2001, president obama may want to send more troops to afghanistan but top democrats have their do you think. we'll get the latest on how the war is going there and what will it take to win it? he ran off with his secretary! she's 23 years old! - oh, come on. - enough! you get half and you get half. ( chirp ) team three, boathouse? ( chirp ) oh yeah-- his and hers. - ( crowd gasping ) - ( chirp ) van gogh? ( chirp ) even steven. - ( chirp ) mansion. - ( chirp ) good to go. ( grunts ) timber! ( chirp ) boss? what do we do with the shih-tzu? - ( crowd gasps ) - ( chirp ) joint custody. - phew! - announcer: get work done now. communicate in less than a second with nextel direct connect. only on the now network. deaf, hard of hearing and people with speech disabilities access www.sprintrelay.com.

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richard engel and jim maceda, two folks who have been on the ground. let me start with you, richard. you come home today and what do you see the political debate about more troop? you've been on the ground. there do you see the need yourself from what you're observing and what commander are telling but the need for more troops? >> i think it is mainly what commanders are saying. it is very hard to get an accurate picture nationwide about if there should be more troops. i'm not a general. it would be presumptuous to say. i was just in southern afghanistan and what i did see was a lot of american soldiers

and not very many afghan troops. and i was with one particular company. there were about 100, 150 americans and they only had 20 or 30 afghan soldiers. so they were very limit by what they could do. they were not allowed to search homes. only afghans were able to go into other afghan homes. it is considered culturally insensitive. we had american troops sitting around waiting for the afghans to show up. and that is a serious problem. also in the north, i think there is a lot of room for nato to step up. there are tens of thousands of nato it's and a lot of them frankly aren't doing very much. and i hear that time and time again from the commander, that the italian troops are doing very little. the german troops are doing very little. some of them never even leaving their bases. one widely published study that most german soldiers serving in nato in afghanistan are actually fatter because of all beer they're drinking than the

average german citizen. so i think there is a lot of room for growth there as well. >> being that you're also in london, you see, they've got their own political problems when it come to troops, sending more troops or having more troops in afghanistan and what the role of nato is. what is the role of nato from what you saw over there? and is there, you know, is there a political will with our european allies to help us out more? i think there is a tremendous amount of political will when you're talking about great britain. no question great britain understands what is at stake. the cooperation between british soldiers and u.s. soldiers, specifically, u.s. marines. i came out of helmond province about five weeks ago and i was at one point embedded with a unit that was partially british, partially american. and those forces got along extremely well. the brits were fighting the

fight. they were using less armored kit, as they say. their equipment was not quite as in53able as ours was. when i asked them if they wanted more helicopters because there was a great controversy in great britain about resourcing these troops, they said no, we don't need more helicopters, we don't need more armor. what we need to do is continue the fight that we're fighting. >> jim, who is the enemy? who do the troops say is the enemy? do they believe they're fighting the taliban, al qaeda? both? who is the enemy? >> u.s. troops will tell that you the enemy is a combination of all of the above. it is al qaeda and they are not of the opinion like some of the pundits that al qaeda is only in pakistan and everyone else is in afghanistan. they're fighting a fight that has no borders. that line of 1893 does not exist for the pashtun tribal and arm

fighters. so they say it is al qaeda. al qaeda affiliates. al qaeda friends. there are also jihadist fighters, like these and others who are in fact liaisons between al qaeda and the taliban, between the afghanistan and pakistan over that border area. so they're fighting a network. they're fighting a base. they're fighting a group of fighters, and fundamentalists. they're not just fighting al qaeda. >> richard, who runs afghanistan right now? we know there is an election. we know there will be a run-up. they're still trying to count the ballots. does the karzai government? and is it a reliable partner for the united states? >> right now no one is in charge of afghanistan and that's a problem, what has been

considered a failed election last month has left the country with a huge power vacuum. right now according to the constitution, karzai does not have the authority to run the country. he is just operating on sort of borrowed time frame. his mandate for power actually expired the day the elections were held. if right now, one of his ministers or one of his governors decided that they didn't want to obey karzai's mandate, they would be perfectly able to do. that they're just giving him a grace period. that is a serious problem. when you have such a fragile political leadership, and more and more accusations that this election, particularly by karzai supporters, was manipulated, and no real legal basis to hole a government, then it is a problem for the united states. the united states doesn't have a partner. it is not that they are looking for a reliable partner. they just don't have any partner. there is nobody home. >> i want to talk, about you

were saying, i know that you've got, done some comparisons with the insurgency of sorts. what's going on now in afghanistan. and what are the similarities and differences to what our soldiers are facing in afghanistan to what they faced in iraq during the height of the insurgency there. >> well, that's right. i was thinking about this earlier and i would put afghanistan right now where we are in afghanistan to where u.s. forces were in iraq, right around the beginning of 2007. it is at a time when there were initial so call surge operations, but it would take another five or sick months before we really saw any kind of tangible, positive changes. it was a time when the kias, kill in action, were just skyrocketing. support for the army, for the operation at home was plummeting. and there was a political void as richard just described at the top. the government in baghdad was absolutely paralyzed just as the

government in kabul is paralyzed for different reasons. so i think it is an uncanny situation. and very, very much parallel to what we saw and question saw big changes occur after that. >> and i have to go quickly but i want to ask you, can parts of the taliban be bought off the way parts of the sunnis were bought off in iraq? >> i asked you if they can get bought off by the americans. >> certainly acolonel date if they're given jobs other, things to do. i don't think they can be bought off like the sunnis in iraq because it was the sunnis in iraq who actually asked for american help. they were being threatened by the, by al qaeda from the outside. they came to the americans. >> the taliban is not asking. the taliban is fighting its own fight. if you give them jobs, sure, a lot of them will put down rifle for now but they're not coming to america and looking for

protection. >> you guys put your lives on the line for nbc news. know that all of us over here appreciate it all the time. thank you both. up nell, david letterman has congressman joe wilson's top ten excuses for why he yell, you lie, at president obama. (announcer) time brings new wisdom new aches and pains, ...and new questions about which pain reliever is right for your body. tylenol 8 hour works with your body, with one layer that dissolves quickly... ...one layer that lasts all day ...and no layers that irritate your stomach the way that ibuprofen can. it's tough on your body pain. not on your body.

back to "hardball's" side show. a special campaign twist. because i'm involve, right? first down and dirty in jersey. that race between democratic governor jon corzine and republican chris christy is perhaps the marquis battle. both sides are going all out for the win. case in point, check out whose name pops out for christy, the

republican in the case. >> last year i vote for obama because i wanted change. this year i'll supporting christie. >> we can start by changing governors. >> interesting. it work for folks for obama voters or maybe even disenchanted voters. moving on to south carolina. it looks like congressman joe wilson has a tough re-election. in 2010, at least financially, his democratic challenger rob miller has raised an amazing 811,788,000 wednesday night. guess what? he is hoping for his own campaign boost. you can see he bought a big time ad on the popular drudge report and he is getting plenty of traffic himself. speaking of wilson, dave letterman took his outburst and spun it into not shockingly comedic gold last night. let's take a listen. >> guess what the category is.

top 10 joe wilson excuses. number ten. shouldn't have gone tailgating before the speech, i guess. number four, yeah, accused a politician of lying. what was i thinking? and number three, i thought it was a roast. that's what i was thinking. number. two it has been weeks since a republican politician embarrassed the state of south carolina. and the number one south carolina representative bil joe wilson excuses, nobody cared when mccain yelled bingo. there it is right there. >> what do they say, at least spell his name right. finally, george lemieux from florida. there he is being sworn in yesterday by the vice president. he is now the youngest united states senator. good for him. time for the big null. governor mark sanford is weathering quite the political storm in south carolina. can he hold on? why not check with some oz makers.

our friends in the intrade.com. according to them, they have oz on this. the chances mark sanford will leave office by the end of the year are at 36%. they obviously are falling this race very closely because sanford doesn't want to go anywhere. the online traders are betting saying there is just a 36% chance he'll leave the governor's mansion. we'll see. there could be impeachment hearings. that's tonight' big number. up next, the debate over health care has largely been overshadowed this week by congressman joe wilson's outburst. should wilson apologize on the floor of the house? and what does his outburst and the support egeting in some quarters sill bliz about the back lash against president obama? natural gas is a cleaner burning fuel, yet a lot of natural gas has impurities like co2 in it. controlled freeze zone is a new technology... being developed by exxonmobil... to remove the co2 from the natural gas... so we can safely store it... where it won't get into the atmosphere. exxonmobil is spending more than 100 million dollars...

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this is the cnbc market wrap. a down day on wall street bring an ento an unusual september rally. the dow jones industrials off 22 points. the s&p 500 is down more than a little more than a point. the nasdaq slid three points. light profit taking after the five-day winning streak i don't have set a jump in consumer confidence. consumer has already improved 4.5 points. shipping giant fed yeks and ups both saw their shares shoot up more than 4%. this after fed-ex raises earnings outlook based on cost cuts and a healthier than expect shipping market. a drop in crude oil prices put appreciate our commodities. oil fell more than $2.50. gold prices continued to soar as investors look for a hedge against the struggling dollar. that's it from cnbc. first in business worldwide. back to "hardball."

>> welcome back to "hardball." "you lie." those two word made congressman joe wilson a house hole name week. he apologized and the president accepted. now kelly o'donnell reports that aides to house speaker nancy pelosi say if wilson does not apologize on the house floor next week, then the house will likely introduce a resolution of disapproval. in a minute, we'll talk to republican congressman brian billbrae. first, the majority whip. okay. you guys were talking about doing this resolution on the house floor if he does not go to the well and apologize. is that correct? >> that's correct. like he should. >> what is a -- i've heard of censure, i've heard of impeachment. there is an official disapproval that you can do? has this been done before?

what was the last person -- >> well, there are three categories we talk about. expulsion, censure and reprimand. disapproval, understand, is a much lesser punishment, but i asked the house leadership that is the democratic hereship to consider disapproval, rather than any others. there are a lot of people in our caucus pushing for censure even beyond reprimand. >> so you do believe this is a compromise. >> i think it is a compromise i asked them to consider disapproval. >> let me ask you something as a native of the south. does the president have a southern problem? we see a lot of polling. he is more unpopular in the southern part of this country than in other places. it is somewhat traumatic. does he have a problem in the south? what would you tell him to do to fifl it? >> well, there is a long history

in our country about the problem that we have in the south. we all know that. his election, of course, i think -- >> you say we all know that. a long problem? >> we have a long problem with race in the country. and it is interesting, i've seen all of these clips today about how the long history of the south carolinians with decorum. >> he didn't bring a cane. >> he didn't bring a kcane buffalo remember that whole incident was all over slavery. we still have these issues to deal. with. >> do you think it is too simplistic? to put it all up to race? >> absolutely. a lot of it is about economics. a lot of it is about our current state of affairs. and the fact that we are faced with this significant, or these significant problems with an

african american in the white house complicates things a little more. you cannot just say it is race. it has a lot of other implications. >> the president hasn't visited any southern states yet, outside virginia which is just across the river. and politically, has seceded from the south. he hasn't spent a lot of time in southern states that he didn't win. would you like to see him show up there? would that cut down on the hostility? >> it is so. and it is south carolina would be a good place to do that. >> your district, i'm sure. is that what you're saying? >> his wife, her roots, her grandfather was from south carolina. and i think that there are many instances, requests have been made for eats one of them or both to come to the state. and i think the president could do a whole lot of good in this regard if we were to take a hard

look at when he and she, or he or she would come to south carolina. >> spending time in the south will you're the vote counter. you're the guy in charge of saying we have the votes, we don't have the votes. health careful are we going to see somebody introduce the health care bill? hey, we have to put the president's plan on the floor. is that going to happen? >> yes, that's going to happen. >> who is putting that together? >> the speaker is. she is working with the three committees. >> they want to take the president's blueprint andture it into the house bill. >> absolutely. we have one eye on the senate. she made it very clear. >> absolutely. >> wait for that. thanksgiving is what the vice president said we would have a health care bill. is that a fair deadline? >> i think so. i think i agree with that will. >> thanksgiving. thank you very much. let's look at what congressman joe wilson had to

say on his campaign website thursday. let take a listen. >> there are those who claim that our reform efforts would ensure illegal immigrants. this, too, is false. the reforms i'm proposing would not apply to those who are here illegally. >> that's a lie! >> not true. >> that was a wrong clip. let quickly play the right clip with congressman joe wilson and his response to the uproar over that moment on wednesday. take a listen. >> the supporters of the government takeover of health care, and the liberals who want to give health care to illegals are using my opposition as an excuse to distract from the critical questions being raised about this poorly could not sede plan. they want to silence anyone who speaks out against it. they made it clear they want to defeat me and pass the plan. i need your help now.

if you agree with me that the government-run health plan is bad medicine for america, then i ask for your support. >> with us now, california republican congressman brian bilbrae. thanks for coming on. >> great to be with you. the house democratic leadership wants to introduce this resolution of disapproval so it is not a censure. if congressman wilson doesn't go to the floor and apologize, why do you think he should go to the floor? >> i think he should. >> you think he should. >> he should point out that he not only made a mistake, but he thought the president was talking about the house bill he saw. he knew that twice the democrat ig party said no. we're not going to check if illegals are on or not. he made the mistake of thinking like a lot of us did that the president was talking about the house bill. the waxman bill. when the president was talking about, when you get to the end of the speech, this man is obviously not talking about the bill that we have before us in the house of representatives and

only now do we generally know the president was speaking of what he hope to see come out of the senate very soon. >> you've been very vocal about this issue of coverage about illegal immigrants in the health care bill. it southbound like you're giving the president the benefit of the doubt. you're waiting to see it show up on the house floor. >> when i heard the president made that statement, i had the same mistake that joe did. only i didn't say anything. the fact is that anybody listening at that time would have that, wait a minute. the president is dead wrong. he hasn't look at the bill elf hasn't looked at the congressional research service that says that illegals will be able to participate in the house bill. unless you check, unless you do verification to make sure people aren't illegal, you know by history that illegals are going to have it. he was actually talking about another bill. >> square this circle for me. it seem like, there's unanimity on this issue. nobody wants to give somebody who is not an american citizen u.s. tax dollars, subsidizing whatever to get health care.

but square this circle. emergency room in san diego. what do you do? what do you do? >> $600 million is costing just in my county. first, what do you do? >> do you tell an emergency room, show me your i.d.? >> no, but at least notify. this isn't just illegals. you have foreign national that's come in from tijuana go in to emergency rooms. and they still get a border crossing card. but i think the big issue here is, you've got to understand that using the same system that the new president has implement for contractors, that you check over e-verify. you check and make sure everyone who is participating in the program is legal. but because the game, oh, we'll say nobody is allowed to do it unless they're legal but we won't allow to you check. as soon as you do that, this is a shell game people are frustrated with. and it -- >> what should an emergency room do?

reject? >> indiana. doctors take this hippocratic oath. to care for anybody. somebody has to pay for that care if they do this. >> chuck, in the '90s i introduced a bill to get the federal government, who is the deadbeat dad here who nogd provide services and is responsible for illegals being here. the federal government ought to be reimbursing those hospital for providing health care. that's our responsibility. this is one of those things. >> you're okay with the federal government. >> the federal government ought to be paying for the thing that they're responsible for now before we start promising more. we don't even pay for the cost of providing this mandated health care. we don't pay for the fact that we're responsible for the illegals being in this family. and we're not doing that. and we're already talking about making more promises. i think that's where the american people say take care of business that you have now buff start making any more big promises. >> you're a californian. you're seeing your party not do well statewide. it has been a struggle for republicans in the state.

arnold schwarzenegger being the xegs. do you worry about the image of the republican party nationally making it that much harder for the republican in california? >> i think the comeback is natural. i'm a subber. i know when the tide goes in, it will come out. if you want to know when a tidal wave is coming, it is not when the water is high, it is when it seem to be super low and never coming. then you have the opportunists who are trying to take the low lying fruit and pick up what's easy. >> you're not concerned about the image? >> i think the image is one that we have to address. we see that with our gubernatorial candidates. again you have to make sure without the extremists on the left may cause a back lash. you're seeing the, not because they like the republican party but they don't like to see what the extremist sgz the republicans are doing. >> thanks very much. thank you for your views. up next, a huge divide over how people in the south view president obama versus those

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we're back with the politics fix. i have joan walsh. and mark mckinnon writes for the

daily beast.com. and as a republican strategist and work very closely to elect president george w. bush. mark, i want to start with you because you have the column of the day of the two of them. no offense, joan. you write on the daily beat, make joe wilson pay. you wilson pay. because as long as those like joe wilson can spout off and call the president a liar and get reawarded with re-election, then he will continue to spout off. you go on, you want to start republicans for rob miller, who is the democrat challenging him. you're talking about trying to get rid of all partisans who are a little out of the mainstream. is that your agenda here, mark? >> i think that's the only thing that works at the end of the day, chuck. we have on going discussion and frustration about the partisanship in congress. they get rewarded by their behavior if they keep their seats. think the only way we address this is to go to the ballot box and throw these bums out of

congress. that's the only way we're going to restore civil dialogue to the political environment. >> all right, joan, there are some that are going to hear that and say, oh, there goes the media or there goes, you know, people -- >> that liberal -- >> no, there they go trying to -- they don't understand how the left and the right works and they just love the middle. they love bipartisanship and they just don't understand the passion that's on the left and the right. fair? >> you know what? i think that's somewhat fair. i do worry -- i -- basically i agree with mark. if we could get rid of the joe wilson of the world, the world would be a better place. he's a weasel, a liar, he disrespects the president. however, i'm a little worried right now we're making joe bimsen into a martyr, as you said, top of the show, he's now raising more money. people are coming to his defense and i, you know, i think that there's a divide in this country. i think he's in the minority,

obviously, since president obama won, who will not give this president respect and who can not -- his supporters cannot be convinced by anything you or mark or i will say. >> mark, you're in that little blue dot of texas that's called austin. as far as the red and blue is concerns. is, you know, is this a southern -- is this a southern phenomenon mostly when it comes to this problem with the president and his critics? >> well, if you're talking about the issue of race, i agree with congressman clyburn. you know, i think that's a factor, certainly, but i think this is driven more by ideology, culture and economics. you know, that's what's creating the divide in this country, much more so than -- i think that the republican party would have nominated colin powell had he run for president. very good chance he would have been president of the united states. by the way, i think joe wilson would have called john edwards if he were the democratic president today.

>> i don't think so. >> we're going to jump in. we're going to go to a quick break and do more of this. more of "the politics fix." ars ! - oh, come on. - enough! you get half and you get half. ( chirp ) team three, boathouse? ( chirp ) oh yeah-- his and hers. - ( crowd gasping ) - ( chirp ) van gogh? ( chirp ) even steven. - ( chirp ) mansion. - ( chirp ) good to go. ( grunts ) timber! ( chirp ) boss? what do we do with the shih-tzu? - ( crowd gasps ) - ( chirp ) joint custody. - phew! - announcer: get work done now. communicate in less than a second with nextel direct connect. only on the now network. deaf, hard of hearing and people with speech disabilities access www.sprintrelay.com. according to a study presented by better homes and gardens, definity color recapture. it corrects the look of wrinkles and discoloration. 50,000 voters. one brilliant winner.

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all right. we're back with a little bit longer segment with republican strategist mark mackinnon and salon's joan walsh. i'll let you finish your thought.

>> i lost my train of thought. >> fair enough 3 let's talk about this bigger issue of polarization and the problem inside washington and much of it is in the media, maybe we're all making too much of it. mark, i start with you. you know, president bush, you know, one of the reasons i think that you have said you were attracted to then-governor bush or candidate for governor george w. bush, was that he was trying to be a bipartisan leader. he couldn't do it here. he didn't -- some would say he polarized this place. president obama ran on sometimes some of the same message saying he was going to be post-partizan and he's already finding it difficult. is it washington, it just can't be done? >> it's interesting, chuck. i actually recommended some reporters go back and look at the early campaign speeches of george w. bush and barack obama. all their language about changing the tone in washington and trying to work toward bipartisanship was very similar. now, we know that that broke down under both presidents and i argue that a part of that, at

least, was the fact we had a recount and many democrats never saw george w. bush as a legitimate president. that poisoned the wealth in the very beginning. i think the fact president obama who campaigned on a similar message of change and restoring some comedy to politics in washington and we could see the difficulty he's having, suggests that it is a washington problem and, you know, we can ascribe a lot of things to do. jury mandering of districts, hyper media coverage. again, i go back to my point. the only way we're going to change the behavior of the elected officials if we send them the message they're going to get sent home and have to pack their bags unless they change and respond to the sort of dialogue and environment i think the american people really want. >> joan, i mean, is there -- do you sit there and say, you know what, your friends, you know, the folks on the left ought to be careful. you don't want toma